Trials & Errors Webinar Series-Trials & Errors: Angus McVittie and Paula Alionyte

Trials & Errors: Angus McVittie and Paula Alionyte

Video Transcription

If you haven't joined us before, the reason that Mary-Rose and I have set up this webinar series is because we are really keen to talk about mistakes. We think that at things like  case conferences and many other occasions, we all get together and we talk about the things that we've done brilliantly and share great ideas, which is obviously great, but  we also kind of found a real importance in talking about where things haven't gone right  and where we've learned from those. So that's why we wanted to do this webinar series, Trials and Errors. We kick off with every session, both Mary-Rose and I, with a small mistake  that we've made. So I'm going to start one today. Recently, it's PDR season at Regent, so everyone's doing their personal development reviews. And I was saying to my team, send  me your PDRs, send me your PDRs. And it got to the deadline and I sent them an email saying,  guys, you haven't sent me your PDRs, the deadline's today. And two of them replied and said,  we absolutely did three weeks ago. And I completely missed it in my inbox. It was totally my fault.  So I emailed HR and told them that it's all my fault. I totally miss the emails. It's not their fault at all. Please can we get an extension? But yeah, it happens. I completely  missed that email. So that's my mistake. Mary-Rose, over to you. Yeah, I was racking my brain to feel like every week I make a mistake and think about  bringing it to this webinar and I don't remember. Today, I think the mistake I'll share is that  I have not taken enough of my annual leave this year. I'm normally someone who does that really, really like to plan in and I really try to role model for the team that I manage  to say how important it is to be taking breaks and to not be burning out. And somehow I've got kind of just over two months left of the leave year and I've still got likely three  weeks to take and I don't know how that's happened. So yeah, I feel like that's a bit of a fail on my part to not prioritise balance there. So I will be taking as much leave as  I can squeeze out before Christmas. But yeah, I think it's easily done. But it's reminded me that like it's important to kind of practise what I preach as a manager. So that is my  fail for today. So thank you. We've got both of our speakers now. I'm going to pass to them actually to introduce themselves rather than me keep talking and then I'll talk a  little bit about the format and then we'll get going. So Angus, I'll pass to you first.  Yeah. Hi, I'm Angus McVitie. I'm currently Legacy Officer at Newcastle University and I'm a consultant for Flow Strategies. I'm also a failed PhD student with ADHD and it's  mainly that I'll be talking about today.  And hi everyone. My name is Paola Alanita and I'm currently running a non-profit and higher education consultancy agency and previously worked at Newcastle University as the head  of Advancement Operations. And my fail this week is probably failing to join the webinar on time. But there wouldn't be a webinar with a technical glitch. But here I am.  Thanks Paola. I think yes, we're all very familiar with technical glitches. So no worries.  I guess it's worth at this point just reiterating that this is an informal discussion. Things will probably go wrong if we all disappear at some point. Please bear with. We'll be  rejoining. But yeah, I guess a thank you in advance to both of our speakers. And there's some useful context to know, you know, we recently did a live panel of trials and errors  at the CASE Summer Conference in Manchester this year. Angus was actually an attendee at that session and it was him coming forward to Hannah and I and suggesting that we do  a session on this kind of topic. So thanks again to Angus for the idea. And I suppose also obvious kind of framing is worth mentioning. Whilst we have talked about neurodiversity  in the title of the session, of course, we are only really talking about one specific example. We are hearing from Angus about his experience with ADHD in particular. And then  Paola's more broadly is managing a team with different neurodiverse needs. So of course, we know we're not speaking to everyone's experience by any means. If anything, I think  the big lesson of this session is we want to learn. We want to learn what mistakes we can avoid, but also what reflections that people have gained along the way. So yes,  please kind of bear with us on that. If you have other suggestions of speakers you'd like to see us talk to or continuations of this theme, we'd really love to hear from you.  So do reach out to Hannah and I on LinkedIn or follow up to this session. But for now, Hannah, anything else you'd like to add before I'll pass to Angus to kick us off?  Just to say, please use the chat. Any questions that you've got, pop them in the chat. Let us know who's in the room. And yeah, Angus, over to you.  Thank you. I think that I wanted to start by saying exactly what you already have in terms of experiences being really unique. I'm not an ADHD expert at all, but also I  think there's so much variance within ADHD. As a condition, it's capturing quite a lot  in under one banner. So I think everyone's experiences, of course, are unique anyway, and we're all different as individuals. But I think that just when I'm presenting  experiences of ADHD, that banner of ADHD is capturing so much that I think it's doing a lot of work in a one title. And I think that's worth keeping in mind. And to start  with a quick introduction to ADHD, because I find it's often misunderstood as a condition.  I think that's largely because it's terribly named. So it's attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. And it's not about having a deficit of attention. It's about a deficit in your  ability to control your attention. So there's three subtypes broadly of ADHD. Again, I don't  think these subtypes capture all the variants, but they're the ones that we've got. So there's  inattentive one, hyperactive slash impulsive is the other. And then people like me have  combined, which is where you have both of the other types at the same time. So the inattentive bit is that inability to regulate attention that I talked about a bit. So rather than  a lack of attention, you can often become obsessed with things that do take your focus and unable to switch off from them. That's where hyper focus, which is this term that  suddenly become widely used in a way I don't particularly like. But that's what that means that inability to switch off or think about anything else. And whilst at the same time,  you can often be unable to focus on things that don't take your attention, even when you really need to. The hyperactivity is similarly variable. So I think the hyperactivity, you  think like a million miles an hour and stuff like that. People who know me who are here, it's like, I suppose that's probably what I'm like a bit publicly, but that like hyperactive  and drive, but that is met with like, you'd expect you then are really prone to burnout and being sort of hyperactive in some moments and then sort of struggling to move at all  because you're just so knackered on the other. The inattentive bit, so the impulsive bit, I don't have any strong objections to that is pretty much what it sounds like.  They say this is all possibly caused by lower levels of certain neurotransmitters. So in particular, dopamine and norepinephrine or noradrenaline. But the theory that low serotonin  is responsible for depression, I think is dying out a bit. So this could also disappear as a sort  of theory of understanding it, but I do think it's a good metaphor for explaining how the condition operates. And I'll kind of come back to that when I talk about my own experience.  And ADHD is a learning difficulty, which means when I had a baby, there was a red flag on my wife's records that said I would struggle, potentially struggle to comprehend complex  information. When I was awarded my third degree, a fairly established academic told me I was  profoundly intelligent and uniquely analytically gifted. So I think in some ways, it depends on  who you ask. But it does impair certain types of learning. Those chemicals that I talked about  are particularly useful for executive function. So that's things like being able to keep track  of time, remembering details and being able to manage your emotions. And all those things are  really socially valued. If you don't do them, you're quite harshly socially sanctioned or  punished. So you're seen as fake or inconsiderate or lazy or overly emotional. If you don't agree  that society sees these things are a big deal, or you think society is quite accepting of these  kind of individual differences, then you probably don't have ADHD. There's a stat that says kids  with ADHD get 20,000 more corrections or negative messages by the age of 12, compared to neurotypical  children, which is quite horrible. Dopamine, the other chemical that I mentioned, part of that is  is a major reward chemical that helps you feel good about your successes and encourages you to repeat positive behaviors. And you might have realized that being told you're thick or  inconsiderate or lazy all the time, and then not having the chemicals required to reward you when  you do do things right, is not good, and you would be right. I can talk about that a bit in  my own experiences. I'm going to talk about me just a little bit. I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD  until I was an adult. I think probably because I was intelligent enough to do okay at school,  despite facing quite a lot of difficulties. And I was sufficiently witty and charming that I didn't  really get in too much trouble. It did mean I grew up thinking I wasn't educationally gifted,  and that I had talents that lay outside of that sort of thing. I certainly didn't think I was  someone who really should have gone to university. Reluctantly, I did. I went through a widening  access program. When I got there, I was surrounded by really posh people who I thought were much more  suited to higher education than me, and I got the impression that some of them might have agreed.  While I was there, I lost two stone, mainly of muscle. I used to be in quite good shape, and I worked insanely hard. At the end of three years, my supervisor suggested I do a PhD.  I said I didn't think I was clever enough to do a PhD, and she laughed and at that point told me  that I was the highest performing student in my cohort. My dissertation got the highest mark  anyone in the department could ever remember. So that was lesson learned for me. Working so hard,  you lose loads of weight and can't eat and get ill is a really good thing because people tell  you you're great and you get rewarded for that. So some of you may already be getting a sense  this doesn't end particularly well for me. So I went on to do a PhD. My feelings of satisfaction  with that barely lasted five minutes, and I mean that literally. I don't have the chemicals in my  brain enough to make me feel rewarded or successful when I do things that are right, so I don't really retain any sense of my own achievement. So I started that PhD. Again,  I felt I wasn't good enough, but now I had this neat trip, which is just work insanely hard. So  I worked six or seven days a week, minimum of 10 hours a day, but sometimes much more than that.  I never took any holidays. All the students around me said they were really stressed and  finding it hard and working loads of hours, so I just assumed it was normal and that's what it  takes to be good at things, and I was glad I finally worked it all out. And then while I was  about halfway through the write-up for my PhD, so all the research done, I'd done the literature  review, basically all the research completed, everything, like last hurdle. I woke up and my  eyes wouldn't focus. There was all this streaking across my vision I couldn't see properly,  and then it didn't go off after a few hours, so I thought I'm probably going to have to do  something about that. I left it a few more days still and then went to the opticians. When I went  to the opticians, they said I needed to see a specialist straight away, and then Boris Johnson  came on the telly and said there was a lockdown and so we couldn't leave the house. So in the  meantime, it got loads worse. I was dizzy all the time. I started falling over a lot. It was really  disorienting. It wasn't looking very good. I was lucky after six months I found out that there  wasn't anything wrong with my brain, which was really good news, and subsequently got diagnosed  with ADHD, which is a separate story I can talk about if we have time because it's quite good fun.  And I found out I broke the muscles coordinating my eyes, so the way I was working had really  damaged them, and I remember that I'd been, I had pain in my jaw, in my teeth that I'd kind  of forgotten about, but it was my tooth twisting into my jaw and trapping nerves in my face,  and so that was causing me some issues as well. So they took the tooth out, and then I did  like rehab for my eyes, which took about six months to get them to a point where I could  function at all. I'd then gone well over the time I was allowed to be away from my PHD at that point.  I think I've been away from it for about a year, and I couldn't really risk going back because it  would undo the progress we'd made with my eyes. Like I say, we're about four or five years later  now, and I'm sort of better, but still not fixed. But I was lucky enough to get a job with an  amazing charity working in criminal justice. I eventually completed my thesis. I did it as an  MPhil, and this all led me to a career in this sector. So I've written down here that the lesson  is that hard work pays off, but that is definitely a joke. There's loads of different lessons for me  to learn. I'm happy to talk through and unpick them, but the big things I hope people might  take from it or can learn from my mistake is a bit about what ADHD is like, because it's not  just like kids being a bit disruptive in a classroom. I think a bit about what normalisation  of struggle can do to everyone, but I think particularly to neurodiverse people, and again,  I'm happy to talk a bit more about that. Also, I think a warning for everyone, if I can, please,  is that we all have this thing, like if I just push myself for a couple more days, and after that  I'll probably still be all right, and one day, you wake up and it's not, and it really sucks,  and I would avoid that if you can. So fittingly, I've probably gone well over on the amount of  time I have, so I'll stop talking and hand over. No, that's fine. No need to apologise, Angus. I  feel like that makes me looking like I'm complaining about not taking leave as a really  minor now. I'm like, I'm a bit tired, take some leave. That's such an incredible example to share  and thank you, because I think anyone that hears that story, you almost like viscerally feel like  how your body must have been feeling to have such extreme responses to that level of stress. So  yeah, thank you so much for sharing, and as a quick side note, it is incredibly impressive  how much you have achieved and your kind of academic achievements with all that going on. So yeah, huge well done to that. There's lots of questions I think we can ask to follow up,  and I should say, I guess what's nice about this example and what we'll come onto with  Paola is that, you know, that's a really kind of useful thing looking back at your academic career,  and now obviously you've moved into a really successful job and Paola can speak to the experience of being a manager. So it's slightly different, I think, to our usual format, but  probably just one of the first questions I had just immediately following that is kind of,  you know, did anyone around you know what was going on for you? Because the time you're talking,  you know, six days a week and those kind of hours and the stress it was putting on your body,  did anyone else pick that up? I mean, what, do you think there were warning signs or were you kind of containing that a lot? I'd just love to understand that a bit better.  I think in terms of other people, it's difficult because you sound, people have a picture of, I  think like ADHD crosses that boundary for me between mental health and sort of learning  difficulties and things like that, and I think people have perceptions of what you'll look like  if you're struggling, and I've never, never like fit that mould, and so I don't think so. I don't  think anyone outside of that, and then it's that thing where people close to me, family and friends  and stuff like that were just like, that's how I behave with everything in my life, you know what  I mean? So like I talked about being, when I was a kid, I was in insanely good shape because I  started doing weights and boxing and martial arts and stuff like that, and I did those and I trained  like I'm full of injuries all over my body is injured, and I've done, I could do a full separate  session on sports injuries, but that was how I trained for that, and again like really unhealthy,  so I think people closest to me would have just seen it as the way I am, and people outside of  that would think like, oh isn't Angus good fun, and he's always talking about stuff, and he always seems  like positive and upbeat, so he must be all right. Angus, you said that you'd stepped away  from the PhD too long to go back again, but did you want to go back? Did you, how did you perceive  what had happened? Was it something that you wanted to go and finish, or did you think actually  I'm so done with that? I think, I mean it's really terribly ungrateful of me, because I'm so lucky, I  mean I had PhD funding basically landed in my lap, some people like leave school of wanting to do a  PhD, and then they, you know, struggle to get it, and for me like I had no idea that I was going to do it,  turned up, did it, got the funding, and then I don't think I was, until I was about halfway through  doing it, did I ever consider like whether or not I wanted to do it anyway, and so, and I mean  in terms of things that I enjoy doing, I mean I got good at it, and so I suppose everyone likes doing  things they're good at, but like sitting at a desk and reading stuff was about the worst thing that  that you could have put me in really, so I mean there was, I think there was a bit of getting into  work and being able to apply those same skills, but in more like working with people ways, I've really enjoyed that, and I think it was quite hard to come away from that, but there  is a bit of, yeah, a PhD, I think like if someone told me that a PhD is the best way to make you  hate any topic, like whatever it is, it doesn't matter how much you love it, if you do a PhD on it,  by the end of the PhD you're changing the channel when it comes off on the news, and it is true. So I think that that actually leads quite  nicely and you know you've mentioned before that like yeah you weren't able to get back to it and it wasn't the right thing so  tell us tell us a bit more then about what your path was next, where did you go when you reached that point where you know perhaps you had done your own  field separately but you realised you weren't going back to your PhD, thankfully your eyes were starting to heal a bit,  what was the next path for you in terms of your career and what led you to where you are now? I was really lucky so a charity that  I've been involved in working in criminal justice, I've been involved with them a bit doing stuff with them and there was a job came up with them and I applied to it, I was a good  fit for it but it was like it was whether or not I would be able to keep it up just because like I was still  when I applied for that job I still couldn't work anywhere near like full days even I was like I could finish about three o'clock  because I was still getting like horrible symptoms and headaches and all sorts and when I applied for that job the the people there said that that they would  they would be happy to take me on and that I could you know work up to however many you know however many hours I felt able to do over time  because they felt that I could offer them something which was lovely and really nice and I'd say not something that I probably would have  done myself in their position like I would have felt very sorry for me but I don't know if I would have taken that risk but then my boss there I think while I was there the  organisation about doubled in in size in terms of their budgets for the year and I raised the vast majority of it for them  they taught me how to do fundraising and I got quite good at it so they they say it paid off for them I hope it did but but definitely I don't know where I would have ended up  without them giving me that chance. So I think that actually when we had the pre-conversations for this webinar  there were so many things coming out of it that I was already thinking these are such good lessons for a manager I mean that's such an honest insight Angus that  like maybe you wouldn't have taken that chance previously but now using your own experience you would have so I think it's great to really have  that reflection. I think this is a really nice time to bring in Paola actually I guess you know you were you have been one of Angus's  managers over the time it'll be great if you could share a little bit about your experience and I suppose  what we spoke about before around you have managed kind of multiple different people on the team and how that's changed the way you approach things and  then Angus we can still come back to some of your experiences after. Thank you and Angus it's really great to hear that full sort of story I've never  actually heard it all and sort of in one very well put together sort of line so it's really interesting thank you. So Angus and I have worked together at Newcastle University  where I managed the operations team and actually that was a sort of a brand new team that we built together so the team of five of us  and that we recruited over the course of one year so we did really have to put a lot of effort in sort of building that teamwork together in a department of 31 at the time I  believe. So to start with I think I would just say that I'm by no means an expert in this field at all and actually sort of working in that team at Newcastle  University was my first time being exposed to working with neurodiverse colleagues and managing them so it definitely was a lot of sort of trial and error in the process of that.  I'd probably start by saying that you know there's nothing outrageously novel for how you manage your neurodiverse colleagues as opposed to neurotypical colleagues and it  doesn't feel to me that it's rocket science you don't have to reinvent the wheel at all and if anything the way I approached it as a manager was making it less about me and how I  you know prefer to lead people and how I prefer to manage people and making it all about each and every individual person in the  team so less about it being one team constantly and more about how do I work with each of these individuals separately, what do they like, what do  they not like, what makes them tick at work, what do they find difficult and this this part in particular is the hardest one. I don't think any of us find it easy  to talk about things that we find hard or things that we're not very good at and certainly for colleagues who are new to the role  for some of them it might be the very first job they've ever had or very first office job they've ever had and it's particularly difficult and I  think when you add neurodiversity as another layer on all of this it makes it even more challenging. So the way I tried to do that was  through the lens of sort of psychological safety and trust at work so I really try to form very honest relationships again with each one of the  individuals so instead of kind of enforcing a solution or thinking of how I want the team to work I actually just took lots and lots of time and I mean  lots of time every single week to just sit down and without rushing through the agenda just have an honest conversation about  how their weekend was and what do they do outside of work and who are they as individuals and then through building that trust  and any requests and obviously asking for lots of feedback asking for how I could make their work life easier  and actually adapting and responding to all of these different needs and maybe requests at some points build safety and trust that whatever  it is they request of me I will deliver and that has helped I suppose most of these colleagues sort of open up and talk about the things that they did find challenging  you know I think with Angus obviously as you can see he's so open about this and we had many very interesting conversations about it with other colleagues it might be a  little bit more challenging so it's really important to take your time be open enough to reflect open enough and vulnerable enough as a manager to  say I don't understand this could you explain it to me can you tell me in some examples as to what you find more challenging and what do you really  enjoy so really just having really honest and open conversations and but you know really avoiding that one-size-fits-all approach  with your team. I think that's really interesting particularly around the conversations and the trust and that openness as you said Angus is very  open about his experiences and one of the things I'd love to dig into with both of you a little bit more is how to approach these conversations  because you know I've had discussions with colleagues about neurodiversity and working with neurodiverse colleagues as well  and one of the things that is often mentioned is this idea of the the fear of saying the wrong thing so you know walking on eggshells not wanting to maybe  approach it directly or going around the houses because you don't want to offend anyone you don't want to say the wrong thing there's you know so much  uncertainty and really being very nervous about having these conversations so I'd love to understand Angus from your experience and Paola as well from yours  is it better to just directly approach what in your experience is the best way to approach these conversations as a manager?  Angus would you like to go first? I think I mean I think Paola is still my boss now because we're working together on another project so I suppose I have to say it but  Paola has absolutely just got it right in terms of how you do this and I think it's that you treat people as people first and those conversations come out I think I mean I get  I get the wrong type of credit because people talk about how open I am but I also told you I had three degrees like very early  on into this thing right so I can someone can you know people can't call me thick anymore right because they can try  but like I've probably got more degrees than I'm probably more educated than um you know it took me like and it took me until the third attempt and even now  really that's the thing that I've lost most from not having a PhD is I can't have more evidence that I'm smarter than other people that'll make  me feel safe when I'm talking about the fact that like I can't remember to do all sorts of like important things like we have a child's  lock on our fridge because otherwise I leave it open and it's like funny the first time but when it's cost you about like four or  five hundred pounds in a year then it's not funny right um so I think it's like it's yeah it's easy to it's really hard to  be open about these things and ADHD um is is there's a lot of stigma around it and perceptions around it um and I think it's yeah it's exactly as  Paula said it's building trust but it's continuing as well to do that like Paula was saying about like continuing to take an  interest in the person as a person when when those conversations are starting rather than pulling stuff back to the whatever diagnosis they've got or you think they might  have or trying to understand them through the lens of that condition because that's it just kills those conversations straight away  um I have had conversations with people where they'll be like as someone with ADHD you'll struggle with oh no no you don't know that um like it's a  really so I think yeah it's it's building that trust and it's seeing people as as individuals and continuing to do that all the way through and never letting that diagnosis  suddenly take center stage um but seeing the the person as a whole I don't know if you'd add anything to that Paula yeah that's very interesting and I I think the fear of  saying the wrong thing comes from assuming you know you really don't want to say that someone might have ADHD and you  really don't want to start with that in any situation in your life generally right you just don't assume and I think if  anything you just ask questions so for example um you might sit down with you know your colleague who is constantly failing to meet the  deadline and just ask the question I've noticed that deadline seems stressful to you at times can can you share a part of the process that you find  challenging are there any adjustments I could make as a manager to support you better is there anything we could do to work around this  and you again may notice there being a pattern but you don't assume that someone has a condition of sorts and so you really don't work with a diagnosis or condition and that's  that's the bit that you would find sort of more uncomfortable you work with the issue at hand which is either someone failing to meet a  deadline someone working at 150 capacity which also happens and I think as Angus tends to sort of work really hard on things sometimes you have to  work together as a manager with that colleague to help them take a step back and take annual leave and rest and take lunch breaks right I always say to  people as a manager your job especially if you work in an office with your team is to make sure they take lunch make sure that they go for a walk  could you make some of those meetings a walking meetings if someone's struggling to sit down in a one-to-one meeting with you and look you straight  in the eye and you can see that they're visibly physically uncomfortable could you sit right next to them and  look at a sheet of paper where you could jot it down things that you want to discuss what adjustments can you make to make  that person feel more comfortable in a one-to-one setting with you in their workplace and about themselves within the workplace  thanks so much for sharing that Paola I think um yeah there are some really relatable examples there that people can take away  um there are some brilliant questions in the chat which are following some of these themes so we'll come to them in a second but just before we do  um because I wanted to make sure I asked this Paola we spoke before I suppose about what you see the role of the manager  and on perhaps an advancement team where there will be teams working with your team a data operations team who for the  moment for example like you had experience of people having more neurodiverse needs on that team versus other teams that might be kind of  different types of personalities or different needs could you just talk yeah a bit more about that in your experience as a manager and kind of  navigating different groups as well as like yeah those immediately working with the team but also those working perhaps more  further afield so my uh experience in terms of my career has always been working with data but usually in fundraising teams so I'm  aware that there usually are sort of um some difficulties in communication between fundraising and communications teams and then fundraising  and data teams um and that seems to always be the case in sort of many charities and higher education institutions and I think particularly when it comes to um  sort of working with teams that tend to normally do sort of desk-based work so data teams prospect research teams operations uh as opposed to kind of teams that work more externally  kind of do more externally facing work um I could make an assumption that people tend to be a bit more extroverted in those roles um there are very different  communication styles sometimes and levels of interaction and and actually I think sometimes even the kind of ability  how much interaction you're able to take in um you know I tend to know that I'm much more introverted I tend to love desk-based work I don't  really like interacting with people too much I don't like too much noise around me networking is the worst thing you could ever  suggest that I do I really don't enjoy it this is challenging to me um so it's very important to be that bridge sometimes  and again there are varied levels of expressing yourself so for example and again I'm really stereotyping here but you may find that um someone who's  in an externally facing fundraising role wants to sit down in a group of five and just brainstorm and come up with some ideas and jump down a quick plan  um sometimes getting people who again tend to work by themselves desk-based headphones on and just need to deliver on this  you might find that challenging because they can't think on the spot so quickly there are too many people around there's too much going on  they want to sit down and jot down a bit of a structure by themselves as to how they process information so sometimes being able to and again  it is difficult but working with your team and knowing your team really well so again through that trust and psychological safety understanding how each of your team members work  you can then assist other teams in finding the best way to get the best work out of your team so as a manager I suppose that would  probably be the kind of the fundamental role that you would play  thanks so much Farla that's really helpful to know I really like the idea of the manager as a bridge I think that yeah that makes a lot of sense  regardless of what the team is like you're dealing with you know different teams have different approaches and things so that's  really helpful yeah there's lots coming to the chat so I think let's ask one of these there are lots of brilliant suggestions we'll start I  think with one Angus just going back to your kind of original story what with hindsight someone's asked what advice would you have for people struggling with symptoms of ADHD  or any kind of neurodiversity diagnosed or not to get support while studying or in the workplace I think it's tough because it's really hard to get diagnosed with  ADHD it takes forever at the moment there's massive queues I was really lucky because the university paid while I was a student the university  funded an ADHD assessment and anyone who is a student that has access to that sort of thing I would encourage to go to go for it while while it's there because the  universities can often put you through a private diagnosis process if you if you have to go through it on the NHS it takes there's I think it was like a two-year wait for a while so  it's really tough I think a diagnosis does help to an extent it just helps because for me it was just my when I got diagnosed I like everything made sense really quickly  even I had to be assessed twice because I was assessed privately through the university and then again on the NHS to get medication  and I was nervous before my second assessment because I was like explained so much of my life that I was really worried that they were going to  say I know you don't have ADHD actually and and then I was going to stop understanding myself again but that self-understand is really good  but also just looking for I mean even if you don't have an a diagnosis if you think you've if you think you've got any kind of condition then I think it's fine to just treat  to look for ways of managing that condition and not feel like someone's like the ADHD sort of police are going to come and  make a judgment on you and whether or not you're right like if you think you've got it then you just probably have and if you you know it's just a made-up thing anyway  it's like they changed the criteria for it so more people have ADHD than used to because they lowered the boundaries and in the past they had higher boundaries  so you know it's like totally arbitrary what makes up these kind of diagnoses if you think you've got traits of a condition  and then look for support specific to them and it does make a difference I mean prior to this I had I'd received all sorts of different  support when I was a kid at school to help me manage different things and it was rubbish because it wasn't tailored to ADHD  I remember speaking to someone when I was a kid I had a really bad temper and I talked to someone who about it who's an ADHD counsellor ages later  and they always like say stop and take a breath and she just laughed and she's like by the time you're you're in a position  where you need to stop and take a breath there is no chance of you walking away from it which is so true but if I'd had that  effective support there or if I'd you know whatever it is that people are going through now if you're struggling with time management stuff  just going with a standard off the shelf thing might not work but if you go I think I've probably got ADHD so I'm gonna look  for what supports up there's tons online look for what support works for people with ADHD and start applying it to myself I would start doing it so I think  definitely look for diagnosis if you can get it particularly if you've got a route to getting it done privately because it's so much quicker but irrespective of the  diagnosis just treat the condition you think you've got and if the interventions you're using don't work then maybe you don't have you know that  but if they do work then just keep doing them. Amazing, thanks Angus. And talking of interventions Holly's asked in the chat what have been the most helpful  things your managers have done to prevent you burning out in different roles? For me definitely that's the stuff Paola just talked about about  building relationships with people so I've worked with with Paola you can have those conversations and you like and it's that if you can't if you don't  if you don't create space to be vulnerable then you can't have a serious conversation about things like that because people are like oh you're  working too hard I know it's terrible isn't it and then you know we all have a laugh and move on and when you build that trust where someone's like I'm a  little bit worried that you might be overdoing it a bit you can stop and you think about it seriously and you can have a grown-up conversation about I  think that is the thing that's better than anything else is having that and building that trust and relationship. And that whole thing about  vulnerability it goes back exactly to what we're trying to do here overall is to give you know people the space and the kind of tools and the ideas to be  able to have those vulnerable conversations across the board whether it's about mistakes that we're making or you know what we're experiencing so  Paula do you have anything to add to that around you know spotting when somebody's burning out or anything like that as a manager? I think it's just  about taking quite a lot of time to see how your team works and really just sort of follow their work throughout every week I think as managers we tend  to focus on what we need to achieve what the team needs to get done that week that month that quarter and kind of really pushing that forward and actually  I always think it's just about making sure your team gets to do the best work they can so you really want to keep checking in with them and kind of just  checking in on not so obviously and making sure that they're okay but just looking at the work that they're delivering on and you know are there  ways in which they could make that they might not need to do as much you know with some colleagues you kind of you look at their work and go you don't need  to work that hard on this actually could be stripped down but others you might need to give them a bit of a push to to get them to refocus them a little bit  help them plan their schedule making sure that they're not overworking underworking so really just taking as much time as you can and kind of just  focusing on them and obviously sort of offering flexibility as well is very important so just making sure that again being vulnerable helps I think I tried  to do that myself you know I I'd always say things like I find it really hard to work in an open plan office there's too much noise I get really distracted I get  overstimulated easily so I'd need that do actually need to sit down somewhere else and I always kind of over talk people through that I'd say I'm just  gonna book myself a little meeting room and you know in the other part of the building just because I can't really be around people for the next two hours  because I'm really struggling and actually if you as a manager feel like you're okay to say that to your team they'll be much more likely to open up  to you as well so really putting as much of your focus and attention on your team and also being able to be vulnerable and actually form friendships as  well you know I think as managers sometimes we're a bit fearful to get too close to the team because you're the manager and you need to sort of step out  and make sure that you know kind of lead in that way but I don't believe in that at all I think that there's a way to as long as you know how to have those  boundaries between sort of personal and professional you do need to make sure you have very close relationships with your reports.  Agreed, Mary Rose I've realised I'm just running with these questions now I hope that's okay. There's a really great one here from Becca actually I think people  can feel really nervous about disclosing a diagnosis of ADHD because of the general lack of understanding that people have it feels like a bit of a  lottery based on the attitude of your specific manager what do you think an organisation can do as a whole to make it less of a lottery which I think is a great question.  Hannah could you repeat that question just once again sorry I think it's my internet connection. No that's absolutely fine so Becca says I think people can  feel really nervous about disclosing a diagnosis of ADHD because of a general lack of understanding people have it feels like a bit of a lottery  based on the attitude of your specific manager what can an organisation do as a whole to make it less of a lot to make it less of a lottery. Well it's hard to  talk on behalf of an organisation I think but it's very important I think to create space for these conversations to happen for training and workshops to  happen across the organisation for different managers but also any staff members I think well-being kind of sessions and informative sessions about  neurodiversity are important and I think again Angus you might want to say a bit more on this but I always think if you're creating space for information  and advice to be shared then the organisation is building trust around its employees that they are being supported and they are in a safe space  so it's the same concept as a manager you want to make sure your team feels like they can trust you feel that they can trust you and then your employees of  the organisation need to feel like they can trust the organisation and it doesn't become an HR issue of you not delivering on your objectives. Yeah I  think that only thing I would add really is I think for all that stuff you need people like in the room who have lived experience these conditions and stuff  like that I think like I've felt really flattered one of the sort of my favourite things that's happened with talking about this stuff is occasionally  people come to me and say like I like a neurodiverse but it's really nice to hear someone like you talk about it and sort of have that confidence to do it I  think there's loads of people like me about who feel sufficiently successful that they're quite confident to talk it and there is a like standing up for it  element like you are I'm quite happy to be confronted by prejudice about this I mean you are either way and but I'm happy to have those conversations and to  tell people where their misunderstandings are and things like that and I think and there's people far better positioned than me to do it as  well I think having people in the room in those kind of training sessions or about who can be part of those conversations and I think you know I  think there's sometimes reluctance to do it and it's like oh but if we have someone with ADHD in the room and then someone's got a question about ADHD they  might be worried that that they'll upset them and so not ask it and I think it's much better to work with the person with ADHD who you bring in to say oh by the  it's not a difficult situation to navigate like that's not that would my first assumption would be some people are gonna feel uncomfortable asking  these questions so I would start off by addressing that it's much better to get the person you know bring someone along who's comfortable with those kind of  discussions and have them there than to have these like kind of weird conversations about neurodiversity where it's a like room full of non  neurodiverse people being like imagine what it must be like for them it's like you know you don't have to imagine we can tell you I mean exactly what I was  referring to earlier yeah we've got some really great questions going on in the chat we've got another one here that says quite often I've heard that  knowledge of neurodivergent people are excellent for this focused detailed data work ie prospect research insight or due diligence but how do you avoid the  neurodivergent employee ending up being pigeonholed into a very specific line of work that basically blocks any career development do you think what  are your thoughts on them a very good question I think the team at Newcastle University I think we were really lucky that we all had the same understanding  that it's very important to get each colleague to pick a side project outside of their sort of job description that they found interesting and exciting for  themselves to work on and and then created opportunities and given allocated time for them to work on that so obviously it wasn't the expectation  that they would do that outside of their work and ours it was all within that time and then they got to choose whatever it is they wanted to do so  again stereotyping someone who might be predominantly in kind of data management data and it kind of import-export role might go and work with a fundraiser and  go into some of the one-to-one meetings or help plan an event obviously things like graduation ceremonies and supporting those you know as an  operations team Angus may remember we all went and volunteered at the graduation ceremony together and and had a great time and that again creating  these different opportunities for people to engage in things that they would find interesting again not assuming that they might not just because of the role that  they have is very important so as an organization just creating more space to do that and actually I think Newcastle at the moment are now trying to do that  across different departments so it's not within the advancement department and that would be done it's actually helping kind of cross-departmental work as well  and engaging in different projects which I think is super exciting thanks so can I Angus can I ask you a kind of related follow-up question based off for  something we spoke about actually and the prep call for this I guess how have you reflected you know you when you've seen kind of managers be so flexible  sometimes that you mentioned they can kind of still almost let people hold themselves back and I guess in thinking about career development would you be  able to speak a bit about that yeah yeah I think that it comes back to that thing about nervousness around talking about these things and not wanting to upset  people to an extent and I think that this is the thing that I see that upsets me and more almost than like outright prejudice against neurodiverse people  because at least that is a problem that we can all recognize and see I think you also see people trying to over accommodate people and and prevent and  in doing so creating a ceiling on their opportunities for personal development so it's it's as Paola said you could look at things like my timekeeping is  like not good that's something that I struggle with because I'm focused on whatever I'm doing but not whatever else is going on around that and you can just  totally leave that because I've already declared openly I've got ADHD so if everyone's too nervous to be like oh I'm just timekeeping it's terrible and  but we better not do anything about it because then he might be upset because with ADHD then that's it for me like I can't you can't promote me to you know  more and more senior roles where I'm meeting with the vice-chancellor because I might not turn up and and so my career is stopped there and I see it often with  people and and and it's difficult to an extent and there's those ways we've got to navigate but I think you've got a look at that I mean the way I look at it  is just like supporting that person am I helping that person I've got like the worst example of it when I was in my first job where someone who is not  directly and managing me but was involved in the school I worked at who said that I had like too much high I was too high energy and and that people  wouldn't take me seriously in my career that is useless feedback because I am too high energy but there's nothing I can you know like beyond sort of  sedatives and there's nothing that I can do to address that for you and so those kind of things that are but it's exactly the same as as it would be with  a person someone's personality we can see those with other things you know you could look at someone and be like this is a bit this is how they are it's not a  skill thing it's just the thing about them and I don't like it so you know there's there's nothing we can do about that it doesn't come into performance at  work but if you can see something where like okay so there's there's got to be strategies to help them manage this it's not about who they are who they are as a  person you know deeply my poor timekeeping I don't really identify based on that and it's something that we can address with strategies and I think  like taking those opportunities to do that and again that builds trust because if you're working with someone and they're like you are it's I think really  extra important to highlight skills people do bring because it's rubbish if someone just like Angus your timekeeping is rubbish you talk too much and you  don't know you know you repeat the same stuff when you're answering a question which I've probably straight into now but if you just pull all of me up on all  of those then I'm and I've already got all these issues around self-esteem because I've grown up being corrected and told I was rubbish all the time and  then that's gonna really hurt but if you can do that tell me some nice things about myself and then work with me on something and it's not like fix this  it's like let's work together to find find ways to manage this better then then that builds way more trust and I'm gonna engage a lot more in those kind of  discussions and again come into the conversation about when people are going to disclose they've got ADHD if someone's really nice to me and we have  that conversation about timekeeping I reckon that's a conversation where someone who's less out about their neurodiversity than me might say well  actually I have a few issues around that I've got diagnosed with ADHD when I was a kid and you can have that conversation there you know showing that you're gonna  help someone manage manage things about their condition that they may be struggling with is probably where that's gonna come through I think you're  much more likely to get it through that route then ask someone if they've got ADHD and then they tell you the things that they struggle with thanks that's  no that makes a lot of sense so yeah thank you for sharing that I'm conscious that we're not we haven't got much time left so before I Hannah and I wrap up I  thought I'd give chance for both panelists if there's anything you feel like you'd like to share that hasn't come up yet or any kind of closing  thoughts and I know we have touched on a lot of common themes around I guess just getting comfortable with the conversations that you know I'm  individualized kind of management and I guess yeah just being kind of vulnerable as a leader but yeah I guess Paola I'll come to you first any kind of  closing thoughts that you would like to share before we wrap up thank you and I would say just really take the time to understand each person in your team  individually and what it is they need and start having those really open and vulnerable conversations with them build psychological trust build safety in the  team so that they understand they can trust you and that you will support them through them for whatever is there they find difficult and also provide them  with opportunities to grow and develop and I would probably start there and I think everything else will naturally develop as you build trust I think I  think this this kind of these kind of conversations are brilliant I think the more we can create opportunities for people for managers to say this is the  things that I find a little bit uncomfortable to talk about and I'm not sure the right thing to say and for other you know people neurodiverse  people to talk about their experiences I think the more we can have of that the better great it wasn't me or did Angus disappear ever so slightly put on a  camera we heard you we just disappeared slightly and so I think we're gonna bring it to a close thank you so much Angus and Paola for joining us really  appreciate it and I've also really really appreciated all of the questions in the chat today I think Mary Rose and I obviously have calls with our  panelists beforehand we plan out everything we're going to say and the stuff that we're going to talk about but it's so great to see people asking  questions that's you know something that we hope will continue moving forward because it's really great to hear what people want to know about really and  take the opportunity to ask our panelists so thank you very much I read something from you before we close that and say thank you I think  someone in particular did share a resource on mind so please do take a look at that in the chat before you jump off yeah it's really nice to see that  conversation going and just to reiterate the point at the start that we would love more suggestions on themes or if you know a speaker if you would like to  speak please you reach out to Hannah and I because yeah the only way we're going to get more comfortable with these conversations and with more broadly  being okay with messing up and learning from our mistakes in the workplace is by having more of the conversation so please do reach out and thank you again  so much to our panelists for the time and Angus I guess coming back to you to say thank you for suggesting this session in the first place it was really  brilliant to have your input we've got one more session coming up in December that's on the 3rd of December so keep an eye on LinkedIn on case from forum  we'll be announcing our panelists for that soon so 3rd of December 1230 and we look forward to seeing you again then so thank you so much again and last plug  just as you said at Hannah we're also planning a special series in January all about kind of career changing in the sector as well and hearing some lessons  from people that have moved into the sector edgy moved out of it perhaps working in sectors alongside so watch this space for announcements on that  mini-series in January just in case anyone's got January blues in the curing by a new job thanks everyone so much for listening have a lovely rest of the day

Video Summary

This webinar, hosted by Mary-Rose and another speaker, aims to highlight the value of discussing mistakes and learning from them, contrasting with the usual focus on success in professional gatherings. The series, titled "Trials and Errors," promotes openness about both small and significant errors. The host shared a recent mistake in overlooking important team emails during personal development reviews, stressing the importance of acknowledging and learning from such errors. Mary-Rose admitted to not taking enough leave and recognized the importance of work-life balance. Their guest speakers, Angus McVitie and Paola Alanita, shared insights on managing neurodiversity in the workplace. Angus discussed his experiences with undiagnosed ADHD during his academic career, highlighting the physical and mental health challenges he faced before being diagnosed. Both Angus and Paola emphasized the importance of treating employees as individuals, fostering trust, and accommodating unique working styles to prevent burnout and maximize team potential. The session also touched on organizational strategies to support neurodiverse employees and foster open, supportive communication. Participants were encouraged to treat potential conditions proactively, even without formal diagnoses, and to engage in candid conversations to enhance understanding and productivity.

Asset Subtitle

October 2024

For this webinar, hosts Hannah Fox (Regent’s University London) and Marie-Rose Delauzun (The Sutton Trust) are joined by Angus McVittie, Legacy Officer at the University of Newcastle who expressed interest in speaking to his experience of being neurodivergent in the workplace.

Angus shares his reflections on mistakes he's made in his career journey so far, highlights common mistakes that staff often make when dealing with neurodivergent colleagues, and gives advice on how to avoid these. Angus's former manager Paula Alionyte, Founder and Director at Flow Strategies (formerly Head of Advancement Operations at University of Newcastle) joins to share her perspective as a manager of a team with multiple members of neurodiverse staff.

Keywords

mistakes

learning

work-life balance

neurodiversity

ADHD

individuality

team potential

supportive communication

organizational strategies